Big Lash Energy: One Million Downloads Fueled by Coffee and Compliments

Dave Jackson:
So I meet this woman at a podcast show, and she has all these super creative ways of promoting her show. She's decked out in orange, super energetic, and I said, you know, I need to have you on my show. And a fair amount of time went by, and she finally reached out and said, hey, you said I should contact you about being on your show.. And so the first lesson you're going to learn today is always do research on your guests. Now here's what almost happened. I was like, sure, you can come on my show. And I'm thinking I'll figure it out later. And so I tried this.

Dave Jackson:
I went to whatever AI tool and I said, I'm interviewing Jayna Marie. Give me some questions that other people haven't asked her. And I let AI do my research. And sure, there are questions that nobody ever asked her because they weren't very good. So I went back. Luckily, we had technical problems the first time we got together. The internet just wasn't being our friend. And so I actually had time to go do the research.

Dave Jackson:
And I went back and listened to her latest episode. I went back and listened to her first episode. And that's when I was like, whoa. This is a woman that could have pleaded, I'm a victim, because all sorts of bad stuff has happened to her as she was growing up. But instead, she's risen above. She's ready to take on the world and conquer it through big lash energy. Find her at biglashpodcast.com. And one of the things that I always say is at the heart of every good podcaster is someone who wants to serve their audience.

Dave Jackson:
And when I heard this, I was like, oh yeah.

Jayna Marie:
And now my personal mission on this planet is to help as many women as possible. I want to help you heal, recover from heartbreak, love yourself more deeply and unconditionally, live boldly, and love the skin you're in.

Dave Jackson:
Hit it, ladies!

SOP Singers:
The School of Podcasting with Dave Jackson.

Dave Jackson:
Podcasting since 2007. 5. I am your award-winning Hall of Fame podcast coach, Dave Jackson, thanking you so much for tuning in. If you're new to the show, this is where we help you plan, launch, and grow your show. I'm going to tell you, today's a little longer, but it's not how long should my show be, but how long can you hold their attention. And today I'm talking with Jayna Marie from Big Lash Energy. Find her at biglashpodcast.com. She's an amazing makeup artist who is doing an amazing podcast.

Dave Jackson:
You heard the story, let's get to our discussion. I remember once I was speaking at the University of Dayton at an Irma Bombeck Writers event, which was really cool because my mom loved Irma Bombeck and I was very close to my mom and I kind of felt like I was surrounded by a lot of people like my mom, and one of the kind of bumper stickers there is, it takes courage to tell a story. It takes a lot of courage to tell your story. And while most people's first episode is not good, I went back and listened to Jaina's, and she explains how she has had 5 last names. And I will paraphrase without spoiling it. Anything that can go bad for women, she's lived through. And so I asked her, because she talks about this, and not in kind of a sympathy porn kind of way, like, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, throw myself— no, not like that. In fact, when people talk about keeping it real, this is what this should mean, not, hey, I'm, you know, a lazy editor and I like to swear.

Dave Jackson:
And so I asked her about putting out this extremely vulnerable First episode.

Jayna Marie:
Honestly, I still remember day one when I knew, when I saw my show went live on Spotify and Apple, it felt like I just threw myself off a cliff because I truly did stand naked in front of a firing squad. Like, that's what it felt like. I'm just going to say all the most vulnerable things about my life. And I remember telling my mom, I'm either going to land on my feet or I'm going to splatter all over the pavement. And I just kind of took that risk and just went all out day one so that people really knew what they were getting into when they hit play.

Dave Jackson:
What inspired her to even start a podcast?

Jayna Marie:
The main reason I started a podcast was because I'm a makeup artist. Like, that's my full-time job.

Dave Jackson:
Wait, timeout. She's an amazing makeup artist.

Jayna Marie:
And I had all these crazy stories of all these wild things that have happened in my life and this wild life that I've lived. And I would just be telling people these stories just so nonchalant. And they'd be like, are you going to write a book? Are you going to— this should be a movie. And I kind of found podcasting as a medium where I could tell my stories quickly without a lot of red tape. I could just say it and not have to worry about getting it approved by someone or worrying about publishers or editors, whatever. I could just, I could just be me. And part of the reason why I came up with episode 1 the way that I did is because before I moved on to life advice or, you know, anything, anything else, I really wanted people to know where my heart was coming from. And I really believe that vulnerability and just being my true authentic self would be the thing that would draw people in and maybe have them stay a while.

Jayna Marie:
And going back to the heart of a servant, whatever that thing was missing for me, I need to be that for someone else.

Dave Jackson:
So Jayna even says in her first episode that she's not really certified to give out life advice. So did she have any imposter syndrome?

Jayna Marie:
I would say when I started, I didn't, because I was just like, I'm just going to be me. And I know that if I've been through something, there is someone else out there who's been through something similar, or maybe worse, or maybe not as bad, but they could just at least relate to me being vulnerable at the very least. But now I would say that now that I've had this show for about 3 and a half years and things are starting to escalate—

Dave Jackson:
there it is again, my friends, 3 years, the magic number in podcasting.

Jayna Marie:
Now it's like, okay, am I just a makeup artist with opinions, a makeup artist with life experience? So now I've actually kind of gone back and thought maybe now I need some credit, more credibility. So I'm actually back in school now to earn a piece of paper to hang on the wall to say like, no, I'm I'm actually more than just a makeup artist with opinions.

Dave Jackson:
Now I'm going to peel back the curtain here. When I was listening to her and she said my show's starting to escalate, I wrote down on a piece of paper escalate and went back to listening. And then I asked her, well, what does that mean?

Jayna Marie:
More listeners, more guesting opportunities on podcasts. I have a vision for myself and for the show that in order for me to get there, like, for example, I've been on My show's been on pretty huge platforms lately with the awards that it's been winning and stuff, and I've been compared to— I mean, I don't— but I have beat Mel Robbins in the awards in a few different things. And so I am seeing really big things for myself and my show, and I just want to personally be ready for whatever is next.

Dave Jackson:
Now, I knew the answer to this, but I wanted to usher her up to the stage to do at least one scene from Humblebrag Theater. Take it away, Gina.

Jayna Marie:
I won 8 Signal Awards. I've been nominated for 1 Emmy, and I was nominated for 2 Podcast Awards as Best Female Host and Best Storyteller, Most Inspirational Podcast. The one that I'm the most proud of is I won gold for Best Writing in the comedy category, and I actually beat Barack Obama's speechwriter for that.

Dave Jackson:
I always say a good song— me being a musician— should be good no matter if you're playing it on an acoustic guitar or a full band. So she starts with great content and then turns it into a podcast, but this has led her to somewhat of an identity crisis.

Jayna Marie:
I don't know if I'd consider myself as much of a podcaster as I would a storyteller. And I don't know if I'd consider myself a storyteller as much as I'm just sharing my writing, right? So at the very core, it's my writing. And so to be acknowledged for that was, I mean, I bawled my eyes out. It was a very exciting moment.

Dave Jackson:
So obviously these are great scripts, these are great stories. How long does it take you to write a script?

Jayna Marie:
There are some scripts that have taken me 2 straight days of sitting and record, sitting and writing, and then I'll listen to a recording and re-record. So it's a pretty major process for sure. A lot of late, late, late nights, or I'll write until about 3 o'clock in the morning and then I'll nap for 2 hours and wake up and write again at like the witching hour.

Dave Jackson:
So, and that's why I always say, especially on your first few episodes, when you record the very first thing you recorded, maybe step back, put a day between you and the last time you heard it, and try to listen to it through fresh ears. Which is why this is going out on Monday and I'm recording it Friday night. I'll have a few days to kick it around and see if there's any way I can make it better. Now throw on top of that, she's doing a solo show, and I know people who say there's no way I could ever do a solo show.

Jayna Marie:
In order to have a solo show, you have to have a certain level of crazy because you have to be able to sit and talk to yourself, you know, and Whenever my listeners go, I really wish your show was longer, I go, how long could you talk to yourself for? You know, as you know, right, you just talk, and when you make a joke, nobody laughs.

Dave Jackson:
It could be a pretty lonely thing. Absolutely. So how do you break up a monologue of you just talking into a microphone? Well, you add some soundscaping to your show. So let me give you an example. Of how this is really, again, just her talking into a microphone with a little, you know, sprinkles on top, little icing. Check out the intro of her latest episode.

Jayna Marie:
Okay, my friend, I'm gonna need you to lean in because there's something that I have to say that cannot leave this room. This is just between me and you. Oh, it almost hurts to say it out loud, but I was wrong. Yep, that's right, I said it. I was wrong about something. Oh, why did I twitch when that came out of my mouth? Historically speaking, I've been operating at about a 98.7% accuracy rate, but today I'm admitting that I was wrong about something. Let's get this over with.

Dave Jackson:
So some really interesting soundscaping there, and we're going to hear about Tim in just a second. But also, do you notice what she did? How many of you are going, wait, what was she wrong about? What a great brain tease there. But when I talked to her about that, she talked about her editor, and that would be Tim.

Jayna Marie:
So essentially the whole soundscape came from me trying to have conversations with myself. So I would say something and then I would respond with what I thought the listener might be thinking about what I just said, because I'm sitting here by myself. And my editor Tim just picked up on that and was like, okay, well, if this is supposed to be another voice, i.e., the listener, we'll put a separate sound on it. And then it got to me doing episodes with multiple characters, and now I'm doing accents, and now I'm doing different weird voices, and Tim would enhance my weird voices with the sound effects. So now we have episodes where there's like 6 to 10 characters, and Tim's over here. I always joke he's with the trumpets and the kazoos and the cymbals being like, Who's this talking now? It's a very, very, very special relationship that I have with my editor where I just send audio of me making all these different voices and doing all these things with no notes, and he just listens and changes and does all the things he needs to do. It's a very, very, very rare thing that we have.

Dave Jackson:
And that Tim is Tim Wolberg, better known as the Podcast Performance Coach, and he does a show called Just the Tip. And that's why he, he put on the artwork Podcast Performance Coach, because he was giving podcast tips. But I will just say as a bonus tip today, don't name your show Just the Tip, because when people go searching for it, they don't find things about podcasting.

Jayna Marie:
The actual soundscape, the way things are done, has all just truly come about organically. So for example, I hired an Australian voice actor to do my intro because I wanted someone I just wanted to feel like I was being introduced, but I needed it— I wanted to be a woman because it's like girl tribe vibes. And then I didn't want her to sound like me, so I was like, well, it needs to have an accent. And then I was like, well, I don't want it to sound too serious, so I didn't want to be British. I was like, how about Australia? So I hired an Australian voice actor. Welcome to Big Lash Energy.

Dave Jackson:
So here again, you can see where she's not afraid to play with an idea and go, what if we did it this way or that way or this way? But through the whole thing, she's had a plan for the show.

Jayna Marie:
And when I listen back to episode 1, I'm like, I really did to exactly what I said I was going to do because I had a very distinct vision for what I wanted for my show. And it was there from the very beginning. And I'm still doing exactly that now, 200 episodes later, 3.5 years later. I've never missed a Wednesday in 3.5 years. Been more work than I've ever put into anything in my life, but it's very rewarding.

Dave Jackson:
Now, did you catch the thing there for a follow-up question? She said it was the hardest thing she's ever done in her life. So what keeps her coming back?

Jayna Marie:
My listeners are thankfully, thankfully so dedicated. I always joke that my show runs on coffee and compliments. And every week, you know, the amount of DMs that I get, it's so inspiring. And people, the long, long, long letters that I get about people saying, you know, I went through cancer treatment and I listened to your podcast every day while I was in the hospital, or I went through a divorce and Everything that you talked about was what I was going through, or I'm single feeling bad about myself and now I feel better about those things. You know, everybody wants to know how much you're making from something, right? Everything comes down to money at the end of the day. And I'm always like, it's not only money that can be like the only form of, you know, compensation does not come in, you know, dollar signs. When I go out in the world in the city that I live in, I get hugs everywhere. People recognize me and it's just such a good feeling knowing that I am giving back to women in a meaningful way.

Jayna Marie:
And that's something that really matters to me.

Dave Jackson:
The other thing I found very refreshing about Big Lash Energy is the fact that I've listened to probably 10 episodes now and haven't heard a single ad.

Jayna Marie:
It was a conscious decision. Thankfully, I work very hard at my other job as well, so that is doing well enough to the point where I don't want to ruin my listeners' experience for a couple of bucks. So for me, I just felt like for what I pay my editor and for how much work I put into the quality of my show, It doesn't appeal to me to interrupt a very interesting conversation, you know, about recovering after heartbreak with an ad for cat litter. That just doesn't— it just doesn't do it for me.

Dave Jackson:
Now, Jaina is a world-class makeup artist, and she travels all over the world doing makeup, especially for people's weddings. And I always say a podcast builds relationships, and those relationships lead to opportunities. So I wasn't surprised when I heard her say this.

Jayna Marie:
People who listen to my show feel like they get to know me really well, and I've found that my show ends up being a big reason why people want to hire me to do their hair and makeup for their wedding as well. They're like, you, you have to have this woman, she's so funny, or her stories are so great.

Dave Jackson:
And I always say the most profitable thing is to sell your own services, and that's what she's doing.

Jayna Marie:
That just happened to happen. That wasn't even the goal. And it's not just working, Sorry, with my wedding business, I'm booked like 2 to 3 years in advance. I'm not trying to sell my bridal services, but if somebody hears my stories and wants to work with me, hey, I love that. But I'm not, I'm not trying to, you know, hawk my wares. I'm just being me, basically.

Dave Jackson:
200 episodes, 3 and a half years. Is it always puppy dogs and rainbows?

Jayna Marie:
Of course, there are times when I feel like a little bit disillusioned or exhausted or looking for like, you know, a reason to keep going. And it's always in those moments that I'll just get a long essay sent to me like, hey, I just felt the need to tell you this. And I always see that as a sign from the universe, like, here's a little more wind in your sails, like, keep going, you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing.

Dave Jackson:
And I always advise the students at the School of Podcasting, when you get one of those emails, when you see a comment on social, take a screenshot, save those emails someplace, because there are going to be those days when you're like, uh, I'm not sure I should be doing this. But we heard how she's staying up late to write these episodes and rewriting them. What's the recipe of a great episode?

Jayna Marie:
Because I always think you have to either make people laugh, cry, or learn. It's either one of those three things that they really feel it in their spirit and want to share it with somebody or talk about it or reach out.

Dave Jackson:
So in that way, she's a little bit like South Park. Yeah, maybe a little wild and crazy, but at the end you go, you know what, I actually listened to something And when it comes time to figure out, well, do I go left or right, or what do I say here? She has a simple formula.

Jayna Marie:
But that's why you can't overthink it. You have to just create and just throw it out there. And you have to know that part of being a creative person is trusting your gut and not overthinking. Because if you overthink it, now it's not really creative anymore. Now it's contrived, right? So I try to just be like, hey, if I feel this way about something, somebody else probably does too. And just trust that instinct. See if it sticks when I throw it on the wall, you know.

Dave Jackson:
Now the fun part of throwing things on the wall— gentlemen, if you've ever wondered what women talk about when they go into the bathroom together, that's kind of what this show is. And as a male, there are times when it just scares the bejesus out of me. And then I was freaked out when I heard— because sometimes, again, it gets a little adult-oriented— and then I heard this secret, and that was her mom listens to her show.

Jayna Marie:
So initially there were episodes that I came out with that were exceptionally cheeky, and I would even put at the beginning of the episode, Mom, Dad, this is not for you. But unfortunately, Mom and Dad are unfortunately very, very supportive, even when I don't want them to be. And so when I first started the show, my mom goes, listen, Jayna, you don't need to be talking about all those hot dogs and donuts. You know, you don't have to be out there with all of that. And I said, Mom, I really appreciate your feedback, but I am a grown woman. And you are not my target audience. I only have one mom and one dad. This is for the rest of the world.

Jayna Marie:
You don't have to listen. Then initially they were just like, you know, kind of cringing. Now my mom will send my sexiest episodes to her friends and say, you should give this a listen. It'll help you in the bedroom. So now my mom's just like, if this is what it takes for you to get in the private jet one day, Jane-Marie, you tell your stories. That's what she always says.

Dave Jackson:
I mentioned she's had 200 episodes. What's changed over that time?

Jayna Marie:
Oh, that's a good question. The editing is— I mean, you could hear the difference. You listen to episode 1, right? And you listened to the most recent episode. The editing is completely night and day different in terms of just how elaborate the production value is, for sure. I would say my recording process is faster. I'm more comfortable on the mic. I remember episode 1, I record— I recorded probably 10 to 15 times before I finally sent it to Tim and I was like, okay, is this good enough? And then I just learned to trust myself and trust the microphone. And now I can read very comfortably and send, you know, 10 minutes worth of audio all acted out and performed without overanalyzing, criticizing myself.

Jayna Marie:
There's just less self-doubt, I would say.

Dave Jackson:
So she's got the confidence to say just about anything. Is there anything she's ever held back?

Jayna Marie:
The only thing that I don't feel comfortable maybe with is I don't like if I don't know the why yet. So I'm not going to just sit and boohoo into the microphone just for pity. I won't boohoo into the microphone until what the reason was why afterwards, so that I know what I learned from it and I can share what I learned from it. But I'm not here for a pity party. I'm not going to just sit and be like, why? It's more like, hey, this horrible thing happened, but now I know why it had to happen that way, and I'm actually low-key thankful for it because of how I came out on the other side. Wow.

Dave Jackson:
For me, in a world where if you accidentally bump shoulders with someone at a concert and now they have to go get therapy, I love that attitude. So I wanted to get her attitude and her knowledge and her tips for new podcasters.

Jayna Marie:
So everybody can write a story, everybody can just, you know, blab into a microphone any kind of advice, but when you put your heart into something and you really let people know who you are, that's nothing that can be replaced by AI. So I let people really close to me— I share my personal life on my Instagram stories. People really feel like they get to know me. And so it's a relationship that my listener has with me personally that could not be replaced by a robot. So I think that that's a really important thing right now with the AI. I mean, there's fake podcasts now, which I'm in school now, and they make us listen to podcasts, but they're AI generated. And I'm just cringing the whole time like, you're really supporting AI generated podcasts. When I'm here busting my butt trying to create a real human made human written full of heart podcast.

Jayna Marie:
It's, you know, it's really icky. But the thing that AI will never be able to take away from us is heart. So that's, I think, in my show is all heart, a thousand percent.

Dave Jackson:
And speaking of AI, well, we have to talk about, of course, video.

Jayna Marie:
Video. So the tricky thing with video, I did a couple where I went to Atlanta and I did some interviews and we did them in a set and we filmed it and we got the little, you know, the little snippets to put on Instagram and the snippets went viral and that was really cool. But I found that the snippets only helped my Instagram. It didn't help my podcast. So when I got, let's say, 250,000 impressions and 3,000 likes on the reel post, It didn't— I didn't get more downloads on my podcast because of it. I just got a nice ego boost on my Instagram. But because of the way my show is with all of this editing, it's not like I'm just sitting talking into a microphone.

Dave Jackson:
I was making radio shows for fun.

Jayna Marie:
With all the process that goes on behind the scenes, the only way I could put my show on YouTube would be if I created a player, you know, and maybe I make a cartoon avatar of myself and I put a player so you could have it on YouTube, but it would never be me just my face talking into a microphone because that's not what my show is.

Dave Jackson:
And in my opinion, I think the show on video might be worse because the fun of her storytelling is it really triggers the theater of the mind, especially with Tim throwing in some sound effects.

Jayna Marie:
I just want to be on the microphone, not worried about, is this my best angle? Is my lighting right? Can I really be myself if I'm worrying about how I'm looking the whole time? I love just being an ugly gremlin with my hair up in a messy bun, no makeup on. Maybe I'm crying. But I'm not worried about the appearance, you know. And that's just another part of the heart to my show is I just don't want that extra level of concern.

Dave Jackson:
And for those of you that are saying, yeah, but everybody says you have to do video, everybody has a name and its name is YouTube. And of, of course they want you to do video. The other thing about doing video is if you are going to do video, ladies, I would come up with a surname, which is a weird way of, you know, a fake name because guys are creepy. And speaking of creepy guys, Jayna, have you run into any situations?

Jayna Marie:
The one place that it does get kind of squeamish, I guess you could say, is just in the dating world. Like if somebody wanted to get to know me, they start listening to all these stories about me and then they have these expectations of me based on what I've told. But I'm going, that was me 10 years ago. I'm not that Jayna anymore. Or like the cringy things I've done for exes in the past. Like, I'm not doing that anymore. So there is that because people now, they'll meet you with an expectation or, you know, I'll meet someone and they treat me like I'm a celebrity, which is hilarious to me, but I'm like, no, I'm just a, just a girl in a microphone. That's it.

Jayna Marie:
But so it does, it has, it would affect my dating life.

Dave Jackson:
And one of the things that Jayna is great at is branding. And aside from Joe Pulizzi and Home Depot, Jayna owns the color orange.

Jayna Marie:
Orange? I loved orange. I, I stuck with orange because I wanted my show to be a bold one for a bold woman, right? And I felt like pink was too soft and red was too something, but orange is all about being eclectic, being a little bit weird, standing out, unapologetic, like the psychology behind the color. And so I just thought everything about orange was just— I just loved it. And so I started day one with everything orange.

Dave Jackson:
And I mentioned we're gonna get into some unique ideas. I've always told people that merch doesn't really work, but it does if you have a strong brand and you follow these steps from Jaina.

Jayna Marie:
I'll say that I'm doing a merch release and then we take orders and I've sold out twice within like 48 hours, both of both times I've done it. And I would say if I was going to give advice to anyone trying to do merch, the number one thing is like, if I wouldn't wear it, why would I sell it? It has to look cool enough. So I did this. I have Big Lash Energy on the chest, but I have a lightning bolt on the sleeves. Then I've got on the back, it says a podcast, a mindset, and a vibe on the back side corner. So it's not just like a typical, you know, and I did them in 3 different colors. So I do orange, black, and then gray with orange writing. And it's very, very on brand.

Jayna Marie:
Everybody knows that I do orange. So I get a lot of people being like, well, I have to have orange. So, and I wear my own merch a lot on my social media. So people see it and They're like, oh, well, I need to have that hoodie that she's always wearing. So if you're not gonna be all in about it, you're not gonna make it look cool, you're not gonna actually promote it or wear it, then why would people buy it? I can't say the profit margins are great. I mean, let's say my hoodies, I would say cost about $38 to print and I was selling them for $80. It's like a, a little bit of a profit. But the main thing is I want people walking around wearing it, telling people about it.

Jayna Marie:
Even if I made no profit of it off of it, I would want people wearing it, right?. And there's people who go, oh, every time I wear my hoodie, somebody asks me, what is that? It's the tribe vibes. It's like, I'm doing this thing, I'm trying to grow a tribe, so let people feel like they're a part of it. And the other thing is you can't market it like, hey, do you want this t-shirt? You have to market the feeling that's going to come with it. Do you want to feel like you're a part of what we're doing? Do you want to be a part of this tribe? Then grab the hoodie. So it's how you word it, and it's how you market it, and it's how you design it.

Dave Jackson:
So again, she's not— nothing against these places, but she's not using like fourth wall.

Jayna Marie:
Yeah, I get them printed locally, so I could do like a Shopify, but as soon as you do a Shopify, you only make— I think the profit is like 15% or something. But I knew that if I printed them myself, I could make double the profit. And the other thing is that what you can do if you're nervous about ordering them yourself, because you go, oh great, now I'm going to have a pile of extra larges and a pile of smalls, you just take pre-orders. So you get people to tell you what size and color they want, and then when you put the order in, you only order what is already sold. So you actually don't lose any money. It can actually work out really nice if you just plan it properly.

Dave Jackson:
I just listened to the local Cleveland radio station. That is my hate listen. I tune in and go, oh, radio is awful. And, uh, that's what they were doing. They were doing pre-orders for their hoodies. In just a minute, we're gonna get into some of the more creative ways she promotes her show. And so when I first met Jaina this was one of the topics we talked about, and that was the interesting way she promotes her show.

Jayna Marie:
So the advice that you always get is be a guest on other people's podcasts. And I can say that that has spiked my listenership when I went on to good podcasts with good following and I was a good guest. I didn't just, you know, I was interesting and well-spoken and I had fun stories. I did get a spike from being on other shows. However, now that that's the advice that everybody already knows about, I feel like nobody really wants guests on their shows. Or say someone like me, for example, I get probably 3 to 5 people trying to pitch themselves on my show weekly, and I don't even have a guest show.

Dave Jackson:
All right, you know, I gotta pop in here because I'm doing a show now. If you get a bad pitch, fire up your microphone, record the bad pitch, explain why it's a bad pitch, And then let me know what your perfect guest would be. And of course, tell me a little bit about your show and your website. Find it at pitchapodcast.com. Back to Jayna.

Jayna Marie:
So I had to find unique ways to market because if I want to be on someone's show, most of the time they want to be on my show in return. But if I don't see that person as bringing value to my listener, I don't even want to do that exchange because I just don't want to do my listeners dirty just for the simple fact of me being on someone else's show. So first up, probably the weirdest thing that I've done is I started— because my show is a relationship and dating podcast— I started dating bios in like Tinder and Bumble and stuff, saying in my bio that I am a podcast host with a link to my podcast. And so all these guys who are like interested in me listen to the show in order to, in order to approach me. So I get downloads from people being like, I listen to your show. I'm like, oh, that's nice, keep listening. So I have dating bios with the links on it, and, or, and lots of those guys will say, I told my sister about your show, or I told other girls I'm dating about your show. So that works really well.

Jayna Marie:
In church, back when I grew up in church, we called it flirt to convert.

Dave Jackson:
As I always say, go to where your potential audience is, make friends, and then tell them about your show.

Jayna Marie:
So I made dating bios. I've also gone to trade shows that would have a lot of potential listeners at them, and I made a booth at a trade show, and I sat there and talked to basically one person at a time and told them about my podcast. I did that. I did that in Atlanta and it did really well.

Dave Jackson:
How do you grow your audience? One listener at a time. I love that one. What show was it?

Jayna Marie:
So this was actually called The Makeup Show. And but it's mostly— it was mostly all women there. And I knew that because I'm a makeup artist with a podcast, obviously that did really well. I've also paid to have little marketing cards for my podcast put in the swag bags at other trade shows. So wedding shows, women's empowerment trade shows. So I will put— I have these little cards about my podcast, and on the back it says, uh, 5 episodes we'd like to recommend for whoever that audience is. So we put these little cards into the swag bag so people go home with information about my podcast and 5, and it'll say, here's something to listen to on your drive home, and it'll be 5 episodes that we recommend that are relating to whatever that whatever they're at the trade show for. And that's been really, really helpful as well.

Jayna Marie:
And I know because I keep track of the QR codes.

Dave Jackson:
Got to jump in here. My favorite QR maker and link tracker is Switchy. I'll put a link in the show notes. You buy it once and use it for lifetime.

Jayna Marie:
Also putting the branding on my car because people are sitting in traffic listening to podcasts. So if you put your podcast on your car with decals, people are sitting in their car needing something to listen to. So that's been very helpful.

Dave Jackson:
I know I've used Sticker Mule to make a sticker of my website that goes across the bottom of my back window. You're talking about putting a QR code on your trunk or something?

Jayna Marie:
Yeah, and branding like, here's some hype for your drive home from work with a QR code on the back of my car. Listen on Apple and Spotify, Big Lash Energy, because we're sitting in traffic. Why am I not going to advertise my podcast?

Dave Jackson:
And I just looked up my Sticker Mule order. It was $13 for the decal from my back window.

Jayna Marie:
So I have come up with some things because I was paying companies to advertise my show or to do PR for me. And I just felt like people didn't really know where to put me because I have such a variety of content. So I was like, all right, I guess I got to do this myself. So that's what I've been doing. And it has been working well so far. I would say I get well over 10,000 downloads a month, like easily. And my show, I'm at close to a million downloads, I would say now for the course of my show.

Dave Jackson:
But— And you heard at the beginning, she's never missed a Wednesday. So when you consistently publish, this happens.

Jayna Marie:
My downloads are so consistent. Every single Wednesday, the exact same people— a number of people listen on Wednesday, the exact same people listen on Thursday. They show up, they notice if my episode's late, they give me feedback. So it's like, I feel very, very blessed to have a very hearty, robust, and engaged audience, which is very rewarding.

Dave Jackson:
And when you have that engaged audience and you start to sell merch, you might get comments like this.

Jayna Marie:
Because my show, like I said, I've never put an ad on, and my listeners know very well how hard I'm working. There were people who were like, can I— I just— I'm just gonna send you $100, I don't even need a hoodie. Or, or, I want a hoodie but I'm sending you $200. Or like, people just wanted to give me money as a thank you for, you know, the entertainment.

Dave Jackson:
In podcasting, you'll often hear this referred to as value for value. I've given you value, you give some of that value back.

Jayna Marie:
It's nice to give people the opportunity to do that if they want. I mean, it's a— it's a exchange of energy, right? They're like, I listen every single Wednesday, the very least I could do is pitch in.

Dave Jackson:
And here's one that makes a lot of people nervous, but I'm here to tell you that John Lee Dumas, who made so much money he moved to Puerto Rico with his podcast, had a meetup, and I believe he had somewhere between 4 and 6 people.

Jayna Marie:
Last year I threw an in-person event, it was called the Galentine's Hot Yoga. I gave a little talk, the tickets sold out in 48 hours. That made like some really good money. I think I probably made $3,000 that day from ticket sales. So those sorts of things can also be a good way to brand your show because then what happens is people go to these events and then they post, I'm at this Big Lash Energy, you know, Galentine's yoga thing. And then people, what's Big Lash Energy? So it's just creating hype around everything you're doing. I also threw a mariachi— I threw a taco party at a big beautiful house with a big pool and I had a mariachi band come in and tacos and all my BLE listeners were there. It was like a 100 people came out.

Jayna Marie:
So there's, there's things you could do where I might not have ads, but if I say I'm doing something, people show up.

Dave Jackson:
So when I heard how lucrative that was, I was like, well, give me some more insight into this private party.

Jayna Marie:
So the first live event that I did was my friend was kind enough to lend me her giant backyard in this big beautiful home with her pool. So that one, my, the venue was given to me. And for that, I just was like, okay, what would I want to do if I came to a party? So we did a trivia game. Where we had like, who's the best BL bestie? And then we did like a game and then you won merch and there was food and drink and there was stickers and stuff for everybody and swag. And we had a DJ, so it was a dance floor and everybody ended up in the hot tub. It was, it was so much fun. Everybody came wearing orange and I had a huge printout of my podcast cover beside the pool and orange balloons everywhere. It was really, really, really beautiful.

Jayna Marie:
The Galentine's event, there was the hot yoga, but I gave a talk beforehand. And then I, it was because it was Galentine's, I gave sexy toys away to people based on questions that I asked and stuff. So there was some kind of games and then all the ladies got a permanent bracelet with a lightning bolt cuz that's in my logo. So every woman left with, um, like a permanent gold bracelet that was included in the price. So it was this beautiful and a hand-tied bouquet of flowers. So everyone got a bouquet of flowers, the hot yoga, a bracelet, a pep talk, and a really beautiful hot yoga class.

Dave Jackson:
This is a great lesson. When you get your community together, give them something that they can then share with their community. This comes for, at least for me, from Penn Teller, the magicians out in Las Vegas. They spend hours in the lobby taking pictures with people to share out on social media, and Jayna did something very similar.

Jayna Marie:
At the first party I threw, at the pool party, we had a recording booth area where listeners could go and record a little message to me or to the other Baily Besties. And then I put those in an episode. So it was like, hey, oh my gosh, I'm a huge fan, I love your show. So we had little, like, a little recording area for people.

Dave Jackson:
When I was in a band back, I mean, way back in the day, before, like, when digital cameras were measured in megapixels, because, you know, it's like, ooh, your, your camera wasn't in your phone yet. I would take pictures of people that came out to my band and put it on the website, and people would go to the website to see their picture and then tell their friends, look, I'm on the internets. And speaking of the internets, what does Jayna do between episodes to promote her show?

Jayna Marie:
I will do throwback links to episodes that— for example, someone sent me a DM going, oh my goodness, I just went through a breakup with a best friend. I've had your episode 75 on repeat because It's helped me through this hard time. So I take a screenshot of that. I put that in my Instagram story with a link to that episode and a link to another episode about friends that I did. So I'm like, oh, if you like that, you might also like this. So I'm constantly posting my engagement with my listeners on my stories. So the more engagement I get about an episode, the more my viewers go, everybody seems to be talking about this episode. I think I need to listen to it.

Jayna Marie:
So I kind of use the feedback to help get more downloads. So I don't put any compliment from anybody to waste.

Dave Jackson:
And if you're thinking, crap, I need to start writing these down, they'll be out at schoolofpodcasting.com/1026. And notice the makeup person, who is female, is doing a lot of stuff on Instagram. Go to where your audience is. People always ask me, what social should I use? I'm assuming Jaina's on Instagram, and so that's where she is, and that's where a lot of her audience is.

Jayna Marie:
I also show people the process of me creating my next episode. So I'll be like, all right guys, I'm sitting down, I'm writing, it's on the way. So I just build up hype throughout the week for the next one. I'll also post like celebrities wearing orange pretending like, here's Drake waiting for Wednesday. Like I do all these kind of things. Like, I bet you didn't know that Alanis Morissette is a huge Big Lush Energy fan because she's in an orange leather jacket or whatever. So I'm constantly just like creating hype that's like not even necessarily there, but I just create my own hype around everything.

Dave Jackson:
I actually just forwarded a picture of Steve Stevens, better known as Billy Idol's guitar player, and he had a t-shirt on that said Based on a True Story. And Dan Lefebvre does a great show called Based on a True Story if you're into history and movies, Based on a True Story podcast. But I'm like, Dan, look, you have a fan! And I think that's a fun little way that's kind of cheeky but fun to say, look, they listen to my podcast even when, like in the case of Alanis Morissette, maybe not, but she was wearing the colors and, uh, that's close enough. I wanted to go back to her storytelling and her writing because we can edit and edit and edit, and when we're done with that, we'll edit some more. So how do you know when something is done, when you're like, yep, this is ready for the public?

Jayna Marie:
I remember at the end of every episode of Full House, they always end up— ended up in Michelle's bedroom and she would teach everyone a lesson. And it was always this, like, I don't like to sound like every episode has a lesson, but there has to be a purpose to the story.

Dave Jackson:
All right, brothers and sisters, I have to bust in here. I always hear people go, yeah, it's me and a buddy, whatever, we're doing real conversations. But I'm just here to tell you that not every conversation conversation needs to be public. I talked to my friend earlier today. We talked about guitars, what he's going to play in church, and the fact that I had to pay for a new tire on my car. Not every conversation, even if it's real, has to be public. And I love the fact that yes, she has a story, and yes, it's real, and yes, hallelujah, it has a purpose. All right, back to Jaina.

Jayna Marie:
I'll calm down. So I'm always— I always have the purpose to the story. For example, Seema's story, it was—

Dave Jackson:
I'm gonna break in here. Seema was a friend of Jaina's who was in a pretty bad relationship.

Jayna Marie:
Listening to the voice, that your inner voice, and knowing, you know, knowing when to listen or when to stand up for yourself. So I'm thinking about that through the whole story of pointing out the times she didn't point, you know, and I have all these little through lines. So if it doesn't reinforce the point at the end, then it's just noise to me. Or if it's not really entertaining, like again, does it make you laugh, learn, or cry?

Dave Jackson:
Otherwise it's just fluff. In her last episode, which just ripped my heart out, Jaina was talking about how she went to a podcast event and while she was there, one of her biggest supporters of the show and a really good friend died suddenly, and she just talked about it on the show. And yep, you hear her cry. It was real. It was kind of sweet, and it was brutally honest. And at the end, there was again kind of a point, which was you don't know when your number's gonna get called. And it really had me thinking and feeling. And yes, even on an episode about someone dying She had me giggle in a couple places.

Dave Jackson:
So I always say, right, if you can make people laugh, cry, think, grown, educate, or entertain, if you can save them time, if you can save them money, you can do multiples of those like she did, you're going to find yourself in a good episode. And so yes, I, a male, am listening to Big Lash Energy, which makes me one of the enlightened males.

Jayna Marie:
I always call the men who listen the enlightened ones because there is a lot of advice that it's could be very, very, very helpful.

Dave Jackson:
And it may also scare you away from dating ever. There was one episode about hot dogs and donuts and how some women pretend that they really don't like hot dogs. And I was like, I am— this is information I didn't want to know. I kind of thought it, but I was like, oh my goodness. So yeah, there's some really interesting information there. And one of the things that happened during this talk was— I always say, you never know. You know, you're talking into a microphone in a spare bedroom and you have no idea the effects you have on people. We've had people, and we'll have Janus because of my podcast story here in a minute, but things happen because you had a podcast.

Dave Jackson:
And this made— she talked about, uh, coffee and compliments. Well, I didn't have any coffee, so she supplied the compliments.

Jayna Marie:
No, thank you. I do have to, before, before we run out of time, I have to say that before I ever hit record, I knew that I had like a decent enough audience that people would listen, but they'd only give me one shot, right? Very Eminem. You got one shot to make an impression. So I was very afraid of hitting record and not having at least a certain level of, you know, good quality. So I studied podcasting for a full year before I ever hit record. And I was like, probably your number one student that never sent you any feedback because I listened to every one of your episodes trying to learn as much as I could about podcasting before I hit record. Cause I didn't want to disappoint people. I didn't want them to listen and then turn away.

Jayna Marie:
So I have huge thank you to you for— there was your show and then Just One Tip by Tim Wahlberg, who ended up being my editor. These two podcasts I listened to morning, noon, and night. Yeah. So honestly, I just didn't want to waste a good opportunity of a first, a first pray— sorry, a first play, right? And so you— I mean, so much that you talked about knowing your avatar and knowing who you're talking to and being direct with your message and all the— everything you talked about, I've listened, took notes, and then when I finally hit record, I had you to thank. So I guess I didn't send any feedback via a DM on Instagram, but I figure I may as well just come on your show and say it myself.

Dave Jackson:
I'm so glad she did. But there's more. That's right. Probably one of the most unique. Welcome to Because of My Podcast, where we spotlight the results people are achieving because of their podcast.

Jayna Marie:
Because of my podcast, I found out that my husband was cheating our whole marriage. So someone had my show recommended to them and she was listening to my stories. And the more she listened to my stories, the more she realized I was sleeping with her husband. And so she just messaged me one day and was like, hey, I just wanted to let you know, like you mentioned in one of your stories, you had a feeling that your husband was cheating on you. Well, he was, and it was with me. And it was 7 years after I'd been separated from him. And so 7 years later, I found out that I'd been being cheated on my whole marriage.

Dave Jackson:
And wow, that is definitely something because of my podcast I would have never known. Definitely gets most unique. As always, if You're talking Jaina, you're talking unique.

Jayna Marie:
Thank you, that's what I'm all about, being unique.

Dave Jackson:
I love that. And now it's time for a twin spin.

Jayna Marie:
Also because of my podcast, a listener heard my story about adopting my daughter and gave her a fully paid scholarship to college. Hooray!

Dave Jackson:
So that's also because of my podcast. Holy cow. Well, Jaina Marie, biglashpodcast.com is where you can find her. The show is called Big Lash Energy, again at biglashpodcast.com. And thank you so much for coming on.

Jayna Marie:
No, thank you. I can't wait to hear the episode. Hopefully it's okay for you.

Dave Jackson:
Are you kidding me? Now, I know I broke in a lot, but I have a lot of other things I want to say about that talk, things that you might have missed. And I'm going to get to that right after this. All right. The first thing I want to talk about, she said she didn't have imposter syndrome and she shouldn't. And I know she's going to school, and look, I did the same thing when I had been teaching for decades and I went to get an actual job in teaching. My original degree was in electronic engineering, and I had to go back to school to get a teaching degree. But in my head, she's got a doctorate from the school of hard knocks. And so if anybody ever gave her any kind of, you know, crap about that, it'd be like that.

Dave Jackson:
The other thing I wanted to point out is this is a podcast that's not a chat show, and so if she did video, she'd have to completely change the way she did her show, which might make it worse. So keep that in mind. And the key to merch is pre-orders. Yeah, I love that. And the last thing, we didn't even talk about this, she has great titles that just make you want to click. Everything we talked about will be at schoolofpodcasting.com/1026. I'll have a couple links to some episodes that I listened to. I mentioned her first one.

Dave Jackson:
Uh, there's some really great episodes about how she adopted her daughter. It's just a really— and this is the bottom line— she's interesting. And I think part of that is just her personality, and she is just being herself. And that's weird because I can't teach get a personality. I can tell you to be more outgoing. I can tell you— but some of this I think is just, that's what makes you you. It's, uh, if you're new to the show, I'm a guitar player, and it's not the gear, it's the hands that make a guitar player a guitar player. I want to have a story where I know two people that, uh, got to play through Eddie Van Halen, one of the world's most popular and greatest guitar players.

Dave Jackson:
They got to play his guitar through his stuff, and when they did, they're like, crap, I still sound like me, because it's, it's not the gear. And I think in Jaina's case, just, uh, it's her personality that shines through along with that servant of serving the fact that she's either going to make you laugh, cry, or educate you in some way. And I love the fact that she doesn't turn on the microphone until she's ready and she knows what she's going to say, where I think so many people are like, well, let's get together and we'll just have a chat and then we'll edit out the boring parts. I think that's probably the person that's like, man, it takes me 12 hours to get a finished episode out. Yeah, because you don't know where you're going. When you have a clear idea of who your audience is and what would educate, entertain, make them cry, laugh, groan, think, groan, you know, my whole thing on that. I think she's really hit the nail on the head, and that's why her show is growing. When you say you have a million downloads and she's only been going 3 years, holy cow.

Dave Jackson:
So I will have links to everything again at schoolofpodcasting.com/1026. And it is kind of weird to think there's, there's a little bit of my thumbprint is on that. It was so nice of her to say those nice things. And if you would like some help with your podcast, you know where to go: schoolofpodcasting.com. Use the coupon code listener when you sign up for either a monthly, quarterly, or yearly subscription. Now running on Podpage. If you haven't seen the Podpage town hall, we just released 6 new features And if you're tired of WordPress plugins and tired of backups and Wordfence and everything else, you might want to look at Podpage. So thanks so much for tuning in.

Dave Jackson:
I'm Dave Jackson. I help podcasters. It's what I do. Been doing it for over 2 decades, and I would love to see what we can do together. And until next week, take care. God bless. Class is dismissed. Maybe share it with a friend right now.

Jayna Marie:
Yeah!